Keep Art History with Andrea

In this episode, Host Debbie sits down with Andrea, a dedicated Art History teacher and Year 9 Dean, to discuss the transformative power of art education and the current challenges facing the subject in New Zealand schools. Andrea shares her personal journey from studying law to becoming an advocate for visual literacy, sparked by her own teachers who used storytelling to bring the past to life. She explores how her various roles as a coach and dean allow her to build deep, authentic connections with her students, viewing them not just as pupils, but as individuals with diverse strengths that often shine brightest outside the four walls of a classroom.

The conversation takes a serious turn as they address the proposed removal of Art History as a standalone subject in the national curriculum. Andrea makes a passionate case for the subject's necessity, arguing that in our modern, image-saturated world, the ability to critically analyse visual information is a vital life skill. She highlights the community-led efforts and student petitions aimed at saving the subject, emphasising that Art History provides a unique lens through which students can explore social, political, and environmental histories while developing their own voices.

Finally, the episode celebrates the vibrant artistic landscape of Aotearoa, from the world-class collections at the Auckland Art Gallery to the dynamic street art scenes in Christchurch and Hamilton. Andrea encourages both new and experienced teachers to immerse themselves in their local artistic communities and to utilise the wealth of digital resources now available to make art history feel "real" and accessible. The episode serves as a powerful reminder that art is not just a study of the past but a crucial tool for navigating the complexities of the present and future.

Hosted by Debbie Ross
Find us on Instagram & Facebook: @nurturingeducators

For more information, guest recommendations, and sponsorship opportunities 
or to chat, please email: nurturingeducators@gmail.com or visit  www.nurturingeducators.co.nz

Thanks for listening! 

Transcript

Debbie: Today we have, Andrea Dawber on the podcast. Andrea is a Dean, Head of Art History, and
leads Water Polo and Swimming. She’s passionate about Art History and the role it plays in
helping students think creatively, critically, and culturally. Today, we’ll be talking about her
journey in education, why Art History deserves to remain a stand-alone subject,. Welcome, Andrea.

Andrea: Hey, thanks.

Debbie: It's nice to have you on the podcast today.

Andrea: Thanks, Debbie, for having me.

Debbie: Would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself?

Andrea: Yeah, so I have been teaching for seven years now. I teach art history and I'm also a year 9 dean. I'm a teacher in charge of swimming and water polo at my school. And yeah, head of department of Art History too. So that's kind of what I do for work and then, you know, just love hanging out at the beach with my friends. Obviously, through my passion for art history, I go to the Auckland Art Gallery a lot and then also I really enjoy the street art scene as well. So I'm known to be going into Glen Innes often and looking at the Bradley Lane project that Gary Silpa has founded and he has new installations that go through kind of on a yearly basis. So check that out, too. And I try and travel, but ever since, like, teaching and COVID and all those things, the travel has been a little bit more Pacific Island focused rather than "Big OE" kind of trips, but yeah, it's kind of what I'm about.

Debbie: Awesome. So what did you do previous to teaching?

Andrea: So, I was a student of life for a while. I was a professional student. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I did two years of law and then found law wasn't really my calling. And then I focused more on art history. I did my honours in art history, I did my masters in art history. And then, yeah, a friend of mine that I knew through retail—I was working a full-time job in retail for Cue and Veronica Maine—and a friend that I met through there, she was like, "give teaching a go." She was teaching at a school on the North Shore as well. And so yeah, I went and checked her out and, you know, she was doing this revision activity with Cranium, but through classical studies. And that was pretty amazing. And I was like, wow, this is not what teaching looked like when I was a student. So, yeah, it was really inspirational. And so I thought, yeah, let's give this teaching thing a go. And, you know, like they say, the rest is kind of history. So yeah, I just kind of gotten stuck in and thought, yeah, let's go for it. So yeah, it's been amazing.

Debbie: So what kind of first drew you to Art History?

Andrea: So, when I was at school myself as a student, we only had to do kind of five subjects in the last two years of school, five per year, sorry. And, yeah, I was doing, you know, history and English and classical studies, and I was like, "oh, what other kind of literature-rich subjects can I be doing?" And, yeah, that's when I started doing art history and my teacher Ms. Kanoh was just incredible. It was that time where you had like the OHTs (Overhead Transparencies) and there was like projections and all of her images that we looked at for art history were her taking photos, like surreptitiously through her jacket when she was in galleries, because, you know, like the whole Google thing wasn't really... yeah, I mean, Google was still in its infancy in terms of imagery. God, am I sounding like a dinosaur?

But, like, it was all just still kind of being documented. And so, yeah, her images were so, like, you know, they would have, like, the little kind of fluffies of her jacket around the outside, but she was just so passionate, and, you know, she would literally start her lessons and speak for 50 minutes, and sometimes we would have a double period, so for almost two hours, and we would just chronicle the history of art. You know, we'd start with Raphael and just kind of do his whole life in a period or two, and it was just so phenomenal. And the storytelling aspect of it was just so wonderful, and, I don't know, like, I mean, don't get me wrong, I love history, but, I mean, another war, really? Where we're looking at art and hearing about society and, you know, how the two kind of grew and fostered each other was just so, so interesting and so cool. So I was just like, yeah, it was just so transporting. So I thought, "this is fun, this is it, this is me."

Debbie: Yeah. And then I... isn't that cool how like a teacher can bring it to life for a student and then, you know, so much so that it made you want to go down that track?

Andrea: Yeah, definitely. And even my lecturers at university—Erin Griffey is phenomenal—you know, whatever paper she lectured, I took. And it was all like the Renaissance, the Baroque, you know, looking at women's lives through art, how men captured those lives... it was just so, so powerful. And, you know, again, it's all about the teacher, I think. Whenever you're studying something, right? You know, if they could make you passionate or kind of scratching at it, then you're like, "oh, I'm in. What else can I learn? What else do I want to find out about?" So, yeah, it's been amazing.

Debbie: So you were saying before that you're kind of juggling quite a few hats at the moment—Dean and Head of Art History and coaching and stuff. How do those roles influence your teaching style?

Andrea: I think relationships with your students are key. So if you can be involved in their lives in different ways, and if they can be involved in your life in different ways, you're going to have that connection no matter what. So, you know, through deaning, even though they're just Year 9 students, you know, I learn about them in a different way. And through water polo and swimming, you know, you're seeing them at their best. You know, the four walls of the classroom aren't for everybody, and I think it's really important that you go to them when they're at their strength, because ultimately they see you at your strength in the classroom sometimes. And so seeing their strengths outside of the classroom and then being able to kind of draw in on that in the classroom, I think, is ultimately where you can get your success as a teacher. So, seeing them in different ways, I think, is really important. And then again, they can see you in different ways because we're more than just the teacher or the subject that we teach; we are all these different things too. And that plurality, I think, of them seeing you and you seeing them is really important. So yeah.

Debbie: No, that's a great point. So with so much on your plate, how do you take care of your well-being and stay balanced?

Andrea: It's so funny. I did a professional development in middle leadership through my school a couple of years ago and one of the senior leaders that spoke during one of those sessions said something that's really resonated with me: "If you're looking for work-life balance, you're never going to find it." The whole thing about balance and 50-50 and however that works, I think can be just so limiting. And so for me, I don't try and look for balance. I just go with what I enjoy. So I do a lot. I choose to do a lot, but I love all of it. And I find that when deaning can get quite heavy and stressful, you go into the classroom and your students will say something a bit left of kilter, you know, and it will just ground you and make you laugh. And then when maybe the marking's getting a bit much, you know, I can go to water polo and again, the students there will be focusing on different things and they shift your own focus.

And so I think that balancing of those worlds does it for each other. And so rather than trying to, you know, get the "life" in there, life is what I'm doing at work as well. And so everything all just kind of... it balances itself out. But I think the focus on the 50-50, I've never been able to do and it's not something that I kind of focus on, but rather I do things that fill up my cup in different ways and at different times. And so everything does just feel like it sorts itself out in the end. And ultimately, you know, I think if you follow what you're passionate about, and if you're in an environment that allows you to be passionate in different areas, I think that's what ultimately will make you feel rejuvenated in different ways. Because yeah, like I said earlier, all the plates are spinning and everything just kind of sorts itself out in the end.

And, I mean, I think the one thing I would say, though, is, you know, summer is my space. And so, you know, as soon as those summer holidays kind of start, I'm like, "right, laptop away."

Debbie: Yeah, recharge the batteries.

Andrea: Laptop's away, the togs are out. You know, you're at the beach, you've got a good book, and, you know, you're around friends and family. And so that's really, that's really great.

Debbie: Yeah. And that just shows the importance of the school holidays for teachers.

Andrea: Oh, of course, definitely. You know, people sometimes talk about them and, "oh, you're so lucky to have those holidays," but we actually really do need them.

Debbie: Oh, you do need them.

Andrea: But I think also too—I mean, again, I might not be the norm here—but those holidays are that chance where you can, with that uninterrupted time and with that clear mind, go back to your resources and go, "is this working? Did I enjoy doing it this way this year?" You know, it allows you the scope to be reflective of your practice. You know, I've got the harebrained idea of completely rewriting Year 13 Art History for next year. And so, yeah, once I've had a bit of beach time and a bit of perspective, I will go back to that and go, "right, what am I going to do?" and try and recreate the course based on the exhibitions that are coming through at the Auckland Art Gallery in 2026 as well. So, yeah, it's been amazing.

Debbie: Do they give you a heads up of what's coming through since you kind of prepare?

Andrea: I mean, I think if I ask, they probably could, but I haven't. But I mean, they've got Pop to Present that's going to be on until, I think it's mid-March in 2026. And so that's kind of going to make me redo things quite differently for my courses, which would be really exciting. And, you know, the gallery space has got so many wonderful curators that you can reach out to and their own kind of audio guides as well that you can kind of just give to your students and let them kind of explore on their own. And so I'm really going to tap into that for 2026, which is going to be really exciting.

Debbie: Make it a bit more real life to students.

Andrea: Real life, right? Yeah, I mean, they love the Renaissance and so do I, but Andy Warhol in the flesh in New Zealand? Let's get it, you know? It's like, make the most of that opportunity. It's so rare. So, yeah, and a bit cheaper than going on a big trip. So.

Debbie: That's for sure. So, yeah. Oh, great. So that's one way, I guess, to help get your students engaged. What other things do you do to engage them?

Andrea: Well, I mean, the street art scene... I mean, with Banksy and his kind of eye-catching works, that has a real hook for my students. We have no Banksy in New Zealand, which is like fair enough. But, you know, the trips out to Glen Innes, to K-Road, you know, speaking to street artists that are still prominent in the New Zealand scene... I think trips like that really make a massive difference for my students. But equally too, the role of the internet and the ability just to kind of drop yourself into these different worlds, as you will, really still make it real for the students.

So I mean, I guess one of the blessings of COVID was that the galleries really had to think of new ways of presenting the collections when people physically couldn't go and see them. And they've done an incredible job of allowing students and anyone, really, to see the art up close. And I think the one thing that most students always comment on when they go to a gallery is, "Oh, I almost can't get close enough to it." You know, when you're online, you can really zoom in and zoom in and zoom in and see the artist's hand, which is something...

Debbie: Yeah, that's amazing.

Andrea: And sometimes it's so little. Or, you know, I mean, like the biggest disappointment of the Mona Lisa is you go see her and you're like, "oh, she's quite small." You know, when you project her on the screen in the classroom, she's much bigger than what you see her in real life and you can't get up that close to her because of the bulletproof case and the hordes of people. And so there is that really interesting kind of dichotomy between... you know, sometimes the students do just prefer seeing it online, because they can go into that real nitty-gritty and you can see the artist's hand and you can see the impasto, whereas when you have to stand at a certain distance because of all reasons, they're like, "ah, this isn't as fun as what it was in class." Which sounds crazy!

But yeah, and I think the one thing that makes the teaching of Art History fun is that there's just so much art. There's just so much. I mean, when you look at Delacroix in Year 12 towards Modernism—I mean, he's painted like a thousand artworks. You can't see everything. But based on what your students in front of you like, you can tailor your teaching around what it is that they're interested in. You know, my students, for example, aren't that interested in Degas because there's a lot of ballet ballerinas and ballet dancers. So we don't really do that, but they loved Delacroix's Liberty Leading the People or Gericault's Raft of the Medusa, and you know, they love the stories that go alongside that. And so it means that you can kind of tailor what it is you're teaching to them and what they're interested in. So that's really...

Debbie: That's great. That's really good. Yeah, it makes it fun.

Andrea: Yeah.

Debbie: Awesome. And do you have any memorable moments of when a student really reinforced—or I just lost the stupid question... ah. Do you have any memorable moments of when a student really reinforced your love for teaching?

Andrea: Honestly, I think my favorite moments are when they contextualize what it is we're teaching in today's kind of language. There's obviously a lot of performative elements in society at the moment, whether that's performative boyfriends, performative girlfriends, performative masculinity, performative femininity... and we were looking at Napoleon Crossing the Alps, and they're like, "oh, so basically Napoleon's performing as this great leader." And I was like, "yeah, that's exactly what he's doing." They're like, "yeah, so basically Miss, your performative femininity is your bubble tea and your Labubu, and Napoleon's performative leadership is his rearing horse." I'm like, "yeah, that's the one."

You know, and I think the grounding element of teaching is always so fun.

Andrea: And I think that's lots of fun. And my favorite is, though, when your students leave, they go on their OEs and they message you and they're like, "oh my god, I'm standing in front of the Mona Lisa right now." You know, they'll take photos of themselves in a rigour with the back to the camera with this vast expanse in front of them, and they're like, "Look Miss, I'm recreating this artwork of Caspar David Friedrich." You're like, "Yeah, you are, that's amazing!"

You know, I had a student who's just been down in Canterbury and they took a photo of Cass by Rita Angus—like the actual physical location, not just the painting. I'm like, "oh, get it!" You know? So for me, when I studied art history, you know, I traveled based on the artworks that I wanted to see. And seeing them kind of do something similar but with their own interests is just, oh, it's just so great. You know, you just have a bit of a moment over you, you know? You're like a teary eye and you're like, "I swear I'm not tired. I'm just like a little bit emotional." But yeah, which I think is so cool.

Or, you know, and they just, they find the art that they love and then they kind of reach out and comment on it or they'll bring it into class and be like, "oh, Miss, can we look at this? I saw that one of our artists has done this as well and can we unpack this a little bit more?" And that's so cool. I love that.

Debbie: That's cool, that's really fun. 

Andrea: And you know, like they just take on some of the learning themselves and they bring it back to class and they're like, "I've learned about this. Can I teach the class this?" I'm like, "Here's the board. I'll take a five-minute break. Bye." So that's pretty cool.

Debbie: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, good stories.

Andrea: Yeah. So it is... art history is not making art, it's studying the art that's been made. And so we look at paintings and artworks and sculptures and architecture as evidence of the social, political, economic, religious, philosophical, environmental, climate of the day. And so when the students are able to recognize those factors in art, I think that's what makes it exciting. Whether that's contemporary in today's society or looking back at history and being able to see it, I think that's what makes it really exciting and it makes it really relevant. We are in an increasingly, an ever-increasingly visual world whereby, you know, like the kids are communicating with emojis, we through the adverts that we see on social media, we're having this bombardment of imagery—and none of that imagery is really all that new. It's just a re-contextualization of what's come before it. And when the students can recognize that and they bring that into the classroom, I think that's awesome. Because that's, I think, that "aha," lightbulb moment as a teacher that you're kind of wanting to see. So, yeah, I think that makes it exciting.

Debbie: So what about the curriculum changes that are coming up? Art history as a standalone subject isn't going to be given. Why do you believe it's important to keep it that way?

Andrea: So I think it's important that art history remains in the curriculum because of its ability to teach visual literacy. Yes, there is the literacy component of reading texts, writing essays, being able to communicate. But the visual literacy of being able to understand what it is that we see is so vital. The ability to foster and develop and expand critical thinking is also so key and so relevant as well. And I think that only accessing those key skills in more sterile environments is quite upsetting and it is quite limiting for the student. And for society as a whole.

You know, I think ultimately, we all would want critical thinkers in our society and the way in which we can develop and foster that is through giving our students that breadth and scope to be able to explore that themselves is so important, and that's what art history does. You know, I mean, the government and education has always wanted "knowledge-rich" curriculums, which is exactly what art history is. In its current form, at Level 2 (Year 12) or at Level 3 (Year 13), we are given prescribed contexts that we need to engage with. So for example, Level 2 at Year 12, the Towards Modernism course focuses on 19th-century French art. I think we're given roughly 12 artists that we need to look at with specific contexts that we need to explore as well. And that is exactly what the curriculum the current government is trying to do across the board.

And so taking it away and taking art history away just seems a little bit reductive in that approach because it's already there. You don't need to do anything. You don't need to write anything new. I don't understand why they want to change everything so much. And so rapidly, right? I mean, I think... look, had art history been given the full ability to have gone back and look at our prescribed contexts and rework them and re-contextualize them—and if we'd been actually given that ability, which we'd started to do... and we started to be given all of that and given time to do it, you know, I think we could have come to an understanding between the two parties. But to have been completely... had the rug pulled out from underneath us and just taken entirely? It just seems a bit limiting, which is a bit upsetting. But, you know, we're still going.

Debbie: Yeah, good. So how do you reckon are going to be some of the biggest challenges in keeping it alive in the curriculum?

Andrea: I guess the biggest challenge is kind of trying to understand why it has been removed in the first place. I think, you know, we have been told that it's a numbers thing, which, yeah, sure. Our numbers aren't comparable to your History, your English's, you know, those kind of subjects.

Debbie: But it's kind of the same across all the options.

Andrea: It is, exactly right. I mean, if you start comparing art history numbers to languages numbers, they are the same. Well, and they're bigger still! You know, I mean, yeah, understandably, you know, Latin was removed, which is tragic. But when you've only got a handful of students, that makes it hard. But when at Level 2 and Level 3, you've still got around, you know, 800 students taking those subjects, what are those 800 students going to do? And I think those 800 students are your curators, your gallery people... they need it. You know, you need that subject. Your art galleries need these people, your advertising companies, marketing firms—they need those art historians. So, yeah, it's interesting to see what's going to happen there.

But I think our biggest challenge is going to be to try to change the government's mind and to keep our subject alive. You know, we've just... one of our students, Lily—I completely forget her last name, it'll come to me—but Lily, she did a petition to the government that was over 8,000 signatures. She presented that recently with Barbara Edmonds and Willow-Jean Prime as well. So, you know, we do have our supporters in government. So we just have to keep coming together as a collective and fighting the good fight.

Debbie: And what other ways can we advocate the importance of Art History with school leaders and perhaps parents and stuff as well?

Andrea: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing we can all do is continue speaking about art history. I mean, we still are teaching it until 2028, so we've still got a couple of years under our belts to go. And so to try and ensure that the community does understand its significance, you know, we've, as a collective, we have been asking our students, our parents, our communities, to be writing into their local MPs with their stories as to why art history is important to them and what it means to them. And so, yeah, writing those letters is, I think, really important and maybe a little bit old school, but, you know, old school works, right?

Debbie: Yeah.

Andrea: And so, yeah, and I mean, again, you know, tagging on social media is really important. We've got the New Zealand Art History Teachers Association Instagram account: @nzahta (New Zealand Art History Teachers Association). Yeah, follow that on Instagram. We are doing posts on there. It's been a little bit quiet, obviously, with the end of the year kind of coming to its climax. But, you know, our story is being told through that platform as well. And so, yeah, I think kind of watching the space as well. We've got some plans in the pipeline for 2026 and just reinvigoration with the new school year. And then, yeah, with it being an election year as well next year, we will see what happens. We'll see where the votes lie and what that voting power can do.

But I know my students in Year 13 are pretty upset about this. And, you know, they've definitely said that their vote counts and they will be voting for political parties that will see the retention of art history rather than to see its demise. So I think that's really quite powerful and quite inspiring as well. So yeah.

Debbie: Great. And have you noticed students benefiting in other ways that you didn't expect from Art history?

Andrea: I think the cool thing about art history is because you're looking at different societies through different lenses, you are seeing representation. And with that, your classroom physically mirrors that representation that you see in art, and it creates those safe spaces whereby the articulation of self can occur too. So what I see happening in the classroom a lot are students coming from a range of different backgrounds with a range of different life experiences, with a range of different curriculum interests and abilities, really accessing knowledge in new and in different ways.

And I think a great thing about art history is that for those students with barriers to their learning—you know, whether that's accessing written documents and things like that—they are able to find that [meaning in the art], and with that they are then able to verbally, at least, articulate that as well, and then comes that kind of wraparound package of getting them to be able to do that in a more kind of traditional written sense too. And so I think when you have those breaking up of barriers occurring because the art is doing that and it's setting that scene, it means that your classroom can be that as well, which is really awesome.

Because I think art history gets that kind of bad rap of being really Eurocentric. But, you know, depending on your teacher, it depends on what you can then kind of do with that and the connections that you can make going forward. And so, you know, I think it does actually allow for broader conversations to take place, which has been really awesome to see. And my students have been really kind of part of that process of creating the daily curriculum, I guess, of being able to say, "Hey, yes, we're looking at this artwork, but it kind of looks like this," or "we can see similarities here. Can we discuss this as well?" And I think being able to be collaborative in that environment is quite cool too.

Debbie: It goes on that kind of strength of voice in a way.

Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, it does.

Debbie: Oh, that's awesome. And so to keep yourself inspired and passionate, what do you like to do?

Andrea: I love an art gallery visit. You can't go wrong. I mean, the Auckland Art Gallery is doing such an amazing job at the moment of creating lecture series and conversations around different things that have been happening. I've been to all of Kenneth Brummel's lecture series that he's had on Pop to Present lately. It's sad that he has gone, but also well done on him for getting an amazing job overseas. And so yeah, kind of being involved in your communities of art, I think, is so important and just really inspiring. And it's nice also hearing from those wider communities that are not so kind of just educationally driven, just kind of upset at the decisions that have been made and the ways in which they are also working behind the scenes to try and shift voices and to make change. So it's so cool.

Debbie: It's great that the whole community is getting behind that.

Andrea: Totally, yeah—from the gallery spaces to the university spaces and even just your gallery-goers also just being really upset about it as well. And so that's been quite cool. And so, yeah, I think my home base for learning is always the Auckland Art Gallery, just because it has just got such a dynamic community.

Debbie: And amazing resources.

Andrea: And amazing resources, absolutely. And you know, there's nothing kind of more inspiring than just standing in front of an artwork and just letting it speak to you and just hearing what it has to say. So it's been awesome.

Debbie: Cool. Yeah. Do you think teaching art history has changed over the years? I mean, you did say a little bit in the beginning with that...

Andrea: I mean, look... as a teacher, I think we teach how we like to learn. I say that, and then I do a lot of activities with my students that I'm like, "oh, if I was a student, I'd hate this!" But I think, ultimately, teaching art history is just so conversational. It's so storytelling and it's so trying to put yourself in a different place at a different time and be empathetic to the surroundings. And I think when you've got an artwork on the board projected—yeah, I mean, now it's from Google Images rather than my art history teacher's surreptitious photo in a gallery—but ultimately, the image is still what's driving the conversation.

And I think the thing that's changed is our students in front of us and their experiences. And I think due to social media and due to the internet, they are more worldly than ever before. And whilst their worldliness is still quite naive in the sense that they have seen these things but they've not experienced these things—like they've seen them on their phone rather than experiencing them in the context—they still have some knowledge going into that. Whereas I think when I was a student, I had never been to Italy. I had no idea kind of really what it looked like really, just based on the little things that were on Google. But our students can now kind of pin-drop themselves on Google Maps and really explore their environment, you know, which is kind of awesome.

And so that's quite cool, and a lot of my students do Duolingo and they've got some kind of Italian or French or German or whatever it is that they're interested in under them as well. And so, yeah, I think perhaps the physicality of teaching maybe the subject hasn't changed, but what the student brings to that subject has changed. And their innate interests are so much more diverse than what they were maybe when I was a student. So the internet has very much been that democratization of education. Like I was saying earlier, I hadn't been to Italy, I had never seen what it looked like, so I couldn't really access it. But our students today, through the power of Google, they're seeing these things and can kind of get a sense of things as well. So they bring it to them too.

Debbie: No, that's great. So maybe just a couple of questions to finish up. What's your vision for the future of art history in schools?

Andrea: We're teaching it. It's happening. That's it. There's no other ulterior, really. They have to. We're teaching art history. Why would they not? Why would we not? I really hope that we teach different art histories. I think yes, it has been quite Eurocentric in focus. However, I think now is the time where we're finding the fight to retain art history and with that, we are going to reinvigorate the subject with different contexts and we'll still be teaching it.

Debbie: Great.

Andrea: That's it. That is it. We are teaching art history. It is going to happen. Just try and stop us. We're not done just yet.

Debbie: So, for all those teachers coming through who obviously are training at the moment—hopefully art history will be there and there'll be more people coming into the subject—what kind of advice would you give them?

Andrea: Reach out to your community. So please follow us on social media. Like I said, the New Zealand Art History Teachers Association on Instagram. We are only as strong as we can be in numbers, and we need to know about you. We need to make sure that as a community, we are super active to ensure the retention of our subject.

My advice would be to go to your galleries; check out those spaces. We've all got such great art at our disposal across Aotearoa New Zealand. So, you know, go and be immersed in what your community is. It is actually amazing.

Debbie: It is! I've been to some pretty small towns and gone and checked out the little art galleries, and it's incredible—the little stories and things that you have in each place.

Andrea: Exactly. Totally. And each community across New Zealand is just so diverse in its artistic output, and that's what makes it exciting. And, you know, go to the street art scenes and see what that's all about. You know, what's happening down in Christchurch is phenomenal, and Hamilton has an awesome scene as well. So expose yourself to that too, because I think your students will love that. You know, there's nothing better than having a graffiti artist speak to the actual students about their days of tagging to now doing murals and things. So that's really cool as well.

Debbie: Have you had anyone come in and actually teach the students about how to tag?

Andrea: No, I haven't had someone come in to teach them tagging yet! But I have had lots of them actually take us around Karangahape Road and out in Glen Innes and speak to their murals in person, which has been amazing. But the next step is definitely to get a graffiti artist in—maybe to the demise of my senior leader...

Debbie: No, that'll be fine!

Andrea: We'll just do it on paper, guys. I'm not doing it on walls. Just paper. But that would be quite cool. But yeah, not yet. I think if you immerse yourself in your artistic communities that you have in your areas, that will make it a lot more exciting. And also, you know, all us art history teachers are only a text or a DM away. So, yeah, we're about.

Debbie: You've got a good little community?

Andrea: Yeah, we've already got a community. We try and get together in person often—at least, you know, four times a year. We had a really awesome conference that ran in the Term 2 or Term 3 holidays, I think it was. It feels like a while ago now. But that was amazing. It was held through the University of Auckland where we had some teachers run workshops. One of the teachers from a school on the North Shore, we made actual frescoes, which was amazing, so that was really fun.

But then we also did workshops around how to actually deliver content to our students or how to teach visual analysis to our students. That was really cool as well. And so I think we had about 30 teachers across New Zealand come to that, which was phenomenal. So that's really fun to have.

Debbie: It's so helpful. So helpful to be into it, eh?

Andrea: Yeah, 100%. And, you know, I think, just pop up your hand and ask; help will always be there for you. So, yeah.

Debbie: That's great. Well, all the best. I want to say thanks so much for joining me today.

Andrea: Thanks for having me.

Debbie: It was very inspiring to hear your insights and your stories, and the passion you show for art history is very much alive. So for the listeners out there, get in touch if you would like to know more and support keeping art history in schools. So yeah, all the best.

Andrea: Thank you so much, Debbie.

Debbie: Thank you.

Note: This transcript was formatted and organised with the assistance of AI. Apologies for the inaccuracies.